In celebration of the 40th anniversary of the moon walk... I like this video! Every life does have potential for great things according to God's plan!
True. A fetus can grow up to be the scientist who engineers a moonwalk, or cures a disease, or in other ways makes life better for us.Or, that fetus can grow up to be a mass-murderer...or a Madoff...or something else that makes our collective life miserable. The potential swings in many ways.Does "God" even give a shit? I mean, it is nice and all to believe in some sort of Daddy/Santa figure, but look around at the world.
Every life has the POTENTIAL for good, but every life can choose evil. God gives us free will. It isn't our right to decide WHO gets to choose and who doesn't. We are merely creatures. The fact that you recognize that there is evil in the world proves that you do believe in a standard of right and wrong. If you don't believe in a Creator, then how did that come to be? C.S. Lewis said, "My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man doesn't call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?" He was exactly right, in a Godless world there should be no justice.
In a Godless world, there would be no justice.Quoting an author does not prove your point. I would be interested to hear your defense of it, in your own words.In a world in which there are hundreds of gods, worshipped by hundreds of millions of people who are as firm in their faith as you are in yours, and whose beliefs in some ways run counter to yours: by what right do you think your god ulitmately defines a straight line vs. a crooked one?There are cultures who have established judicial procedures, from primitive times on, that serve the good of the collective. Those procedures were NOT dependent on a Christian god.
I said, "In a Godless world there SHOULD be no justice" not there WOULD be. There is a big difference. Those were my words. They were not part of the quotation. There SHOULD be no justice because without God there is no moral STANDARD by which we should live our lives. Society has no right to tell us how we should live them. Let's take abortion for example, since a pro-life video was the fuel for this debate. Christians believe ALL life is precious because we were ALL made in the image of God, FOR God. Most Christians have to believe this happens at conception. If you don't believe in God, the answer to the question, "When does life begin?" may vary because no one really knows for sure. Some may say the fetus is a human at 2 months along, others may say at 6 months along... and so forth because really, how can you know? What happens if someone comes along and says "Babies don't have any rights until they are 2 yrs old."? See what I mean? Who is setting the standard for this, and shouldn't it be up to the individual in a world that doesn't believe in a creator? If it is legal for someone to kill their baby at 24 weeks, then why isn't it legal for them to kill it at full term if they decide it is unwanted? Hell, you could say you are just putting the child out of it's misery, so it wouldn't have to live out a life of disappointment, squalor, and misery in a world that has no meaning! My contention is this, if there is no God in this universe, then anything goes, because it is just "Survival of the Fittest." Right? Life has no meaning outside of trying to satisfy our own tempory earthly needs and desires. See, FAITH, HONOR, LOYALTY, JUSTICE, INTEGRITY, and even LOVE are all spiritual things. There is no room for them in an atheistic worldview. I take it you believe that the standard of right and wrong should be dictated by whatever is deemed acceptable for the good of all people at any given time in history... But if you look back in history, there have been numerous ethic codes in various areas of the world. They often change from age to age. Where is this moral code written? Do you get it from laws and government? Travel to Iran, and I'm sure you will come back claiming much injustice! Yet, there are laws! I'm sure you will say, "Yeah but people OUGHT to care about others and be unselfish for all of mankind, and society as a whole and live in peace and harmony and promote justice." I simply ask you why? Just because you believe this is so, doesn't give you any right ACCORDING TO YOUR WORLDVIEW to impose these views on others. If another country wants to invade a neighboring peaceful country to steal it's resources and improve the lives of IT'S people and society, what gives you the right to claim foul and evil? What if this act would improve the lives of millions, but destroy the lives of a few in comparison? This seemingly would benefit society as a whole, but we all know how wrong this would be! This is what I meant. If atheists really held to their worldview intellectually, they could not even speak of any injustices. I'm only saying that atheists don't have a right to any moral laws. I believe other religions have that right when they claim a Deity. I am a Christian because I believe it is TRUE with sound REASON. I can't possible debate Christianity with you in the comments section of my blog though! This is crazy.
You wrote:"I simply ask you why? Just because you believe this is so, doesn't give you any right ACCORDING TO YOUR WORLDVIEW to impose these views on others."I appreciate you taking the effort to talk at length about something you so strongly believe in. Thank you.May I ask the same of you, that you did of me. You wrote:"Just because you believe this is so, doesn't give you any right ACCORDING TO YOUR WORLDVIEW to impose these views on others."Is it at all possible that you are guilty of the very thing you seem to be accusing me of -- that you are trying to impose your worldview upon others?I'm not an atheist. I have no dog in this fight, one way or the other. I am interested in what people who feel passionately have to say for themselves.I would only say at this point that much of what we take for granted as moral or ethical law in the U.S. predates the Christian era. Our Greco-Roman philosophers wrote the book on a lot of what lead to our Federal law. And there are secular nations who enjoy a standard of living that is quantifiably greater than ours in the U.S. -- but I think we can lick 'em given a fair chance.You and I could get into a debate about abortion, but we would also have to incorporate war-killings, and capital punishment, and the Christian teaches on those topics.>I can't possible debate Christianity with you in the comments section of my blog though! This is crazy.You just did. And you did just fine. And it is NOT crazy.
I really appreciate your sentiments. Thanks! :-)I do like to talk about this stuff, and I actually like to clarify things that I say when I think they are misunderstood... so I really don't mind. I have to admit with all honesty though that I do get kind of frustrated with anonymous people leaving comments on my blog. People can get really mean on the internet when they don't know you. I created this blog for fun... To post cute pictures and post positive things that I believe in for my family and friends. I didn't create this as a forum for debate even though I do enjoy it sometimes. I would much rather do it in private than public, but since I don't know you, and I get a sense that you really just want to understand what I'm saying, I'll try once more. There is just so much to all of this, it does seem insane to do it here. I wasn't debating Christianity with you at all. That was just one aspect of about a million objections people have with believing in the existance of God. I could go on at length about this still. You said...Does "God" even give a shit? I mean, it is nice and all to believe in some sort of Daddy/Santa figure, but look around at the world."This led me to think that you couldn't possible believe in a Creator because of how much evil there is in the world. This is where the justice came in with the C.S. Lewis quote. He was brilliant by the way, and if you ever want to check out any of his books, "Mere Christianity" is a good place to start. He was a hardcore atheist in his early years, and went on to be one of the greatest defenders of Christianity in this era. But anyway, that was one of his arguments. That the very REASON people can't believe in God is the very REASON they should because God is the source of all justice. I believe people instinctivly know right from wrong,(unless they are crazy or have rejected it for so long that it fades away ) because God writes it on all our hearts. But for an atheist, it looses it's meaning intellectually. This is what C.S. Lewis meant by the crooked line. A man CAN call a line crooked because he was created in the Image of God and has this moral law on his heart...That is, he knows what a STRAIGHT line looks like so he can claim injustice where it lies. I could go on, but anyway, it sounded to me like you were an atheist because you used God in parenthesis... seemed like you were mocking the notion. Are you an agnostic then? I'm just curious.You wrote:Is it at all possible that you are guilty of the very thing you seem to be accusing me of -- that you are trying to impose your worldview upon others?I was only asserting that you had no right as an atheist to do that to others because you can't claim any moral law. This is an intellectual argument only for the existance of "A" God, not the truth of Christianity. I didn't even begin to argue that with you. I can claim a moral law because I believe in God. Now since I know you are not an atheist, you can claim it too because you are admitting to some type of standard. That's why I said at the bottom that if someone believes in any type of diety at all I can't use this argument about injustice because they are at least claiming a source. So now that I know you are NOT an atheist we can both hold to our moral law and debate each other. Of course I have the right to try to convince you of truth and you have the same right to try to convince me of the things you believe are true... because truth ultimately comes from God. But you know, if you believe in God, you have to eventually CHOOSE one. You can't possible believe in just a good God in heaven who left us without a will or reason for all this injustice or chaos that surround us here. He would be more evil. How can an evil god create a universe that has more compassion than he has?
I wanted to post that because all of a sudden I got scared that my computer would crash, and I don't have time to type that all over again. You know how that goes. But I wanted to say something about what you said about the Greco-Roman philosophers... Yes our country is SO new in comparison to other nations. When did the first settlers come 1492? That's almost 1500 years after Christ died. But Judiasm is like over 4000 years old! I think the Old Testament is one of the oldest manuscripts in existance! Christianity is the fulfillment of all the Old Testament texts and prophesies of the coming Messiah. Moses gave the Jews the 10 Commandments maybe around 3000 years before Christ. I'd have to look that up for sure, but I think that is close. If we are going to talk about ancient, it's hard to go back further than that.
Here is another quote from Blaise Pascal written in his Pensees... I just signed back on after remembering that I read this in his "Of the "Necessity of the Wager" section last night."Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is."And:"I would have far more fear of being mistaken, and of finding that the Christian religion was true, than of not being mistaken in believing it true."The whole script is pretty interesting and more in-depth if you'd like to read. I want to read it more later myself. Here's the link:http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng
Sorry. That's a bad link. For some reason when I publish the comment it's not putting in the full link. If you are interested just Google Blaise Pascal Thoughts from the University of Virginia Library.
"So now that I know you are NOT an atheist we can both hold to our moral law and debate each other."Actually, no, we can't.I appreciate all the time you put into your responses, and I will read all the links you referenced, and will learn something from them, I'm sure. Thank you for them.If, in your worldview, atheists are to be dismissed out of hand, then, really, we can't talk openly about morality. I'm not an atheist (or an agnostic), but I am not a crucifier, either.Jesus got nailed to the cross by close-minded people. I would no more try to justify his end to those haters than I would try to talk to someone who is an atheist-hater.
An atheist hater? This is funny to me. If I were an atheist hater, do you think I would have spent all this time trying to convince you of the truth? If you are not an atheist or an agnostic, then what are you? You have to be something. You have to take a side. If you simply don't know, then it should be a top priority in your life to read and study and figure it out, because eternity is of the upmost importance. Our lives here are so short and uncertain. If you say you don't believe in anything, that asserts atheism. If you say you believe in God, but not a God who has revealed his will to us, (i.e. any of the world religions) you are an agnostic. It is really quite simple. I wish I knew where you were coming from... I wasn't saying I don't debate atheists! Remember this whole argument stemmed from this:Does "God" even give a shit? I mean, it is nice and all to believe in some sort of Daddy/Santa figure, but look around at the world. You asserted that you couldn't believe in God because there is so much darkness and injustice in this world... that's what YOU were insinuating! In an atheistic worldview, justice should be irrelevant, because there is no moral STANDARD to follow. I can't possibly explain this any better than I already have! In fact, I thought you were an atheist, and I WAS debating you, so that proves my point. If I were dismissing you, I would have simply deleted your comment! I think this subject matter is too important to do that though. I was merely asserting that someone who doesn't believe in any standard of moral law given to us by God, cannot possibly DEBATE MORALITY! That was the whole argument. Good luck on your journey in all sincerity though. Yes, do check out the links and C.S. Lewis! I do wish I could help more, but since I don't know you, this format makes that impossible.
One last comment for my anonymous friend... If you'd like to give me a link to YOUR blog, I would gladly carry on this conversation with you in YOUR comment section.If you didn't mean that it was hard for you to believe in God because of all the injustice in the world by saying this:"Does "God" even give a shit? I mean, it is nice and all to believe in some sort of Daddy/Santa figure, but look around at the world."...Then I don't know what this statement means!?! I really don't and would like it explained.Being close-minded does NOT mean that you can't know truth and be able to articulate and argue what you believe to be true! Just like being open-minded doesn't mean you look around and believe ALL things are true because you are unwilling to take a side. Being open-minded means you are able to look at all aspects of something BEFORE you discern what you believe to be true! I have done this, so don't tell ME I am close-minded because I KNOW what I believe. I can articulate this FAR better than you can, because to tell you the truth, you STILL haven't told me what you believe in! Yes! I know there are other world religions out there... Please tell me if you are a BUDDIST, HINDU, MUSLIM, JEW, AGNOSTIC, ATHEIST, what have you! It is VERY hard to answer you when I don't know where you are coming from. Telling someone they are close-minded when YOU are unable or unwilling to articulate the very BASIS of your own position is ludicrous. Thinking you are so open-minded that you somehow embrace all faiths on an equal level when they all contradict each other is illogical! It is IMPOSSIBLE to argue with someone when they are so illusive as to WHAT they believe in! If you believe in the man in the moon, say THAT, and we can go from there... And yes, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that this is not true, if you believe in NOTHING, You ARE an atheist! Look up the meaning... Atheist- "One who believes there is no diety" THAT is it's meaning!If you are UNSURE what you believe, this is fine because everyone starts out this way... Life is all about learning. I COMPLETELY understand this position, but don't go on someone else's blog, anonymously, and attack what they believe, when you are unwilling to state what YOU actually believe. It seems really invasive.
Oh yeah... I was not avoiding the question about Jesus being crucified by close-minded people. I just didn't answer because the answer is obvious. Yes, Jesus was hung on the cross because He claimed to be the Messiah, and the people's hearts were hardened to the truth. "Over His head (on the cross) they placed the written charge against Him. THIS IS JESUS, KING OF THE JEWS." Matthew 27:37
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